tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post3458261544459380176..comments2024-03-28T21:06:50.048-04:00Comments on Blunders on the Danube: Battle of Heraclea, May 280 BCGonsalvohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-26103044396215231812023-01-24T09:04:23.415-05:002023-01-24T09:04:23.415-05:00Well, I’m all for anything that leads to scholarly...Well, I’m all for anything that leads to scholarly discourse but I can’t be press ganged or conscripted into saying anything complimentary or respectful about Jeff Jonas. This is after all, whether by recklessness or wilful design, a man who has made himself the primary internet authority for the Battle of Heraclea by the way he has presented his fantasies on it as factual on the ancientbattles.com website and lulled many of its readers like yourself into reproducing it on their own websites. Much worse than this, is that it has duped supposed reputable encyclopaedic and informational sites like Wikipedia to finding its way on their platforms too, which further misinforms readers. Go to the Wikipedia site and you will see the conjured or manufactured figures that Jonas gives for the respective armies, broken down to every sordid little one hundred. There is no problem so long as a reader is left in no illusion that a battle reconstruction that is presented in the public domain is based purely on fantasy and doesn’t have an ounce of historic value but in the opening paragraphs of the Jonas reconstruction, he gives a brief background to the battle and states that the Romans put a consular army of 50,000 men in the field which he later amends to a double consular army of about 45,200 in four legions, probably having reflected on the bizarre suggestion that a single consular army of two legions could ever be as large as 50,000 in strength – the ratio of allies to Roman citizens would be impossibly high and without precedent. They are a Jonas fabrication and not backed up by any evidential or historical source but the way they are presented here is as if they are realistic and even factual. Now, does anyone really consider it credible that a single Consul could command as many as 50,000 men in the field or could be put at the head of four legions, because you would have to be willing to look pretty foolish if you did. I would assert that you won’t find any historical battle account in the Camillan period where a single consular army is as large in strength as 50,000 or where a single consul has been assigned the command of a double consular army of four legions, even in the later overseas campaigns.Steve Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369662666165248095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-4016881006723717082023-01-22T15:21:18.140-05:002023-01-22T15:21:18.140-05:00It wasn't a "challenge", but if we a...It wasn't a "challenge", but if we aren't open to learning new things or evaluating new evidence, then why bother in the first place. I certainly don't expect all feedback to be complimentary, as long as it is respectful, and where there is disagreement, the basis for same explained. Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-90447649998968905522023-01-22T13:38:01.286-05:002023-01-22T13:38:01.286-05:00It is with regret that I was unable to make the fu...It is with regret that I was unable to make the full and detailed reply I considered necessary to explain better my point of view and to accept your challenge to provide a more credible and evidential based alternative to the Jeff Jonas account because of the limitations that Google impose on the number of characters allowed for these replies. However, I’m very glad to see that you did publish because it indicates that you are in favour of free thought and free speech and I would hope that you would agree with me that website owners who invite comment from their readers in the public domain, shouldn’t have an expectation that this will always necessarily be complimentary, unless they require a degree of hypocrisy from those that do so.Steve Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369662666165248095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-9562523885510912392023-01-12T16:40:43.204-05:002023-01-12T16:40:43.204-05:00Considering the unnecessary rudeness of this comme...Considering the unnecessary rudeness of this comment, I considered just declining to publish it, like those from the Asian go-go girls, online gambling sites, etc. Probably no one else will likely see it, anyway! <br />It is a GAME, sir. Neither Mr. Jonas or myself would claim to be professional Historians. Even if we were,. being a Historian certainly doesn't necessarily make one a good scenario designer, nor give one insight into how different sets of rules work. For my money, Mr. Jonas' scenario, as adapted here at least, is balanced, fun, interesting to play, and gives historically reasonable results. I don't really care if one of my units represents 500 men or 2,000,as long as the ratio is reasonably appropriate. Perhaps you would care to share your constructive ideas on developing a scenario for Heraclea?<br />Otherwise, consider your money to have been cheerfully refunded. Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-60718989136383600282023-01-12T08:42:22.903-05:002023-01-12T08:42:22.903-05:00It's one of my biggest bug bears regarding any...It's one of my biggest bug bears regarding any wargaming reconstruction of the battle of Heraclea when I see that it is based on information provided on another wargaming site. Jeff Jonas is not a qualified historian or a reputable source for this battle - he is just another wargamer. The figures given by Jonas for this battle are completely fictitious, arbitrary and a complete fantasy. Neither is there any evidence to back up the assertion that the Roman cavalry were superior in number to that of Pyrrhus. Probably the opposite, as at Asculum was the case. We know there was only one consul at Heraclea. To suggest that there were four legions and as many as 50,000 men under the command of a single Consul at Heraclea is irresponsible and incredulous and being a megaphone or perpetuating this misinformation, or giving credence to the site that produced it, is in my opinion not helpful in providing any realistic basis on which to stage a more accurate reconstruction.Steve Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369662666165248095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-8961779937759676122022-07-25T07:30:25.979-04:002022-07-25T07:30:25.979-04:00Thanks, James; "film at eleven", but the...Thanks, James; "film at eleven", but the game went great there as well. Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-17384090522127209802022-07-25T04:49:42.120-04:002022-07-25T04:49:42.120-04:00Great looking playtest Peter and it sounds like a ...Great looking playtest Peter and it sounds like a close one too!<br />They are gonna love it at Historicon.<br />Regards, JamesJames Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17897755636246185173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-47342868421316255602022-07-24T17:21:32.201-04:002022-07-24T17:21:32.201-04:00Thanks, Robert.
So what's to keep you from try...Thanks, Robert.<br />So what's to keep you from trying it now? :-)Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-12869261221515680132022-07-20T19:38:53.613-04:002022-07-20T19:38:53.613-04:00Excellent looking game! One of my first ever 25mm...Excellent looking game! One of my first ever 25mm wargaming armies was Republican Roman; that project came to grief as I just didn't enjoy the WRG 7th Ed. that was in vogue at the time. The TTS rule set would have been much more my to my liking had it been around then!Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07889130893225462338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-38835994357564585212022-07-20T07:28:12.173-04:002022-07-20T07:28:12.173-04:00Thanks, Keith. Yes, usually some pics and a post w...Thanks, Keith. Yes, usually some pics and a post will be forthcoming eventually! :-). History serves up some odd results as well! :-)Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-70533509129498029202022-07-20T06:21:38.877-04:002022-07-20T06:21:38.877-04:00I agree about TtS - it can throw up some odd resul...I agree about TtS - it can throw up some odd results and situations occasionally but its always entertaining! This looked like a classic. Hope all goes well at the show and no doubt we will be treated to full details of how things went kin a future post!rrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316317334203888350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-3215784325141912982022-07-18T23:04:45.673-04:002022-07-18T23:04:45.673-04:00Thanks, Gary; getting ready to pack it all up tomo...Thanks, Gary; getting ready to pack it all up tomorrow, and depart Wednesday for Lancaster. Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-20558137878400781722022-07-18T09:00:22.771-04:002022-07-18T09:00:22.771-04:00Figures and scenario look excellent. Hope it goes ...Figures and scenario look excellent. Hope it goes well at show.Sgt Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805201299484374889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-43239161625118070982022-07-18T06:42:09.694-04:002022-07-18T06:42:09.694-04:00Thanks, Iain! Every army must have at least one c...Thanks, Iain! Every army must have at least one camp in TTS, but you can have up to one per command. Adds victory medals, but they are vulnerable, especially if you're inferior in cavalry.. especially Light Cavalry! Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-37673488187736739712022-07-18T03:42:59.593-04:002022-07-18T03:42:59.593-04:00Splendid looking game and good to be close! I did...Splendid looking game and good to be close! I didn't know that about the camp, every day's a school day!<br />Best Iain caveadsum1471https://www.blogger.com/profile/02174163740406928172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-24576046117649591972022-07-17T07:03:42.653-04:002022-07-17T07:03:42.653-04:00It was very close; without the loss of the Camps i...It was very close; without the loss of the Camps it probably would have gone the other way. I will probably decrease to one Epirote Camp for Historicon, with fortifications and a garrison, as the camp historically was noted to have been fortified... evidently, the Romans learned that from Pyrrhus! Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-83207398884778620592022-07-17T07:00:47.409-04:002022-07-17T07:00:47.409-04:00Thanks, Aaron. I've never had a game of TTS! t...Thanks, Aaron. I've never had a game of TTS! that wasn't enjoyable! :-)Gonsalvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531623280789478092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-57088579548483720392022-07-17T04:51:10.140-04:002022-07-17T04:51:10.140-04:00That was a close game which means it should be fun...That was a close game which means it should be fun for all involved, The river is in an awkward place for the Romans, but at least it is shallow.Lawrence Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11626386564817082992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170582445870210697.post-1014135033641206422022-07-17T02:50:08.738-04:002022-07-17T02:50:08.738-04:00Nice. TTS! aways worth a game. Will be a spectacul...Nice. TTS! aways worth a game. Will be a spectacular affair on the day I'm sure. Table and troops look splendid.Prufrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659918463589870423noreply@blogger.com